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Old 11-23-2019, 11:23 PM
Dub Dub is offline
 
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Default Brexit and Democracy

This thread is not intended to be one to discuss the pros and cons of Brexit. Instead, I'd like to hear opinions on whether or not the UK's current behavior constitutes a violation of their own democratic government.

Here's a beginner's guide to Brexit.

It seems as though there was a lot of fear, anger, and xenophobia in the air when the United Kingdom held their Brexit election which decided they would separate from the European Union.

It was a narrow vote margin, and the campaign was marred with lies and attacks such that even some of the citizens that wanted to be informed about it in order to make a good choice didn't have the skills to separate fact from fiction on the topic.

Once the vote was over, the UK had voted to withdraw.

In working on the details for how this would happen, it suddenly came to many people's attention including leaders that formerly supported Brexit, that they had just gotten themselves into an exceptionally bad scenario.

Now whether they should have known that before convincing people to vote on it or not is an interesting discussion, but the one I am focused on is what happened after the UK realized they had just placed themselves in a disastrously bad spot.

The leaders in the UK began trying to find a way to manage Brexit without destroying their economy.

Seems like politics might be hard and stuff though, because they have yet to unveil the epiphany that will get them to the promised land of economic prosperity that Brexit was supposed to provide.

They were supposed to be gone from the European Union already. They're... not. Politicians and community leaders alike; again even those that supported a Brexit, are dragging their feet to try to find a deal in some way, shape or form. Some are even calling for another election to undo the previous vote.

But the people voted to be gone by now, with or without a deal.

The UK is not gone.

Is this a violation of the principals of democracy?

Why or why not, and what are the implications of that answer?
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:55 AM
Kitsune9tails Kitsune9tails is offline
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Default If it ain't broke, don't Brexit.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSM...OA2s1wsOR2EgJA

The above is my favorite resource on Brexit. It is apparently a couple of guys in a flat with nothing better to do. Well, they had something better to do, but apparently YouTube and Patreon became more profitable? Poor guys.

I am not sure to what extent the Brexit referendum is legally binding. If I understand correctly, it is merely a formal social contract. There is no codified penalty for failing to Brexit or even just ignoring it; no one would go to jail or even be removed from office if all of the MPs just said, "screw it, we're not doing it" tomorrow.

Now there might very well be rioting in the streets. MPs might get murdered and what not, but I don't think there are any laws in place that penalize the government or Parliament or the Royal Family in any way for ignoring Brexit, except for a law saying the PM has to keep asking for extensions if the time limit runs out.

So technically, no; working as intended.

Socially and politically, yeah it's a disaster. You could call it a betrayal of Democracy, but it is more a case of Democracy shooting itself in the foot.

Essentially, the People have voted to do a thing that the government cannot figure out how to do in a way the people will accept. And by 'not accept' I mean in a way that won't result in people throwing Molotov cocktails at tanks.

This is a lesson to every future Democracy: vote on plans, not ideas. (disclaimer: this may not be a practical lesson)
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Old 11-26-2019, 04:40 PM
Publius Publius is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
Lots of stuff there. I wish I had time to watch it all. I don't.

Quote:
If I understand correctly, it is merely a formal social contract. There is no codified penalty for failing to Brexit or even just ignoring it; no one would go to jail or even be removed from office if all of the MPs just said, "screw it, we're not doing it" tomorrow.
Are you saying this wasn't like in the US when a referendum gets passed it has a date in it that it becomes the law of the land?

If there's no law being violated, that's important. I hear a lot of people saying that Brexit is a law that was passed. If it's not actually a law, or if it has no date for it on it, then those people are not correct.

Because of your post, I went and looked.

Here is what I think you are referring to, from Wikipedia:

Quote:
]The referendum
Limitation

This Act required a referendum to be held on the question of the UK's continued membership of the European Union before the end of 2017. The Bill did not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. ... The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution.
I have to say that I did not know that and I took it for granted that a referendum in the UK worked the same as in the US. It apparently, does not.

To me this is an easy question and answer now:

Did the government of the UK violate the democratic will of their citizens?

No, or as you stated, "So technically, no; working as intended."

This is a fact-based question, and there is a fact-based answer. I think it's important to know so that I can point it out the next time I hear this argument.

Thank you very much for bringing it to my attention!

Quote:
Socially and politically, yeah it's a disaster. You could call it a betrayal of Democracy, but it is more a case of Democracy shooting itself in the foot.

Essentially, the People have voted to do a thing that the government cannot figure out how to do in a way the people will accept. And by 'not accept' I mean in a way that won't result in people throwing Molotov cocktails at tanks.

This is a lesson to every future Democracy: vote on plans, not ideas. (disclaimer: this may not be a practical lesson)
Sadly, the US is populated by a large portion of people that think education is a sin, and that learning is a curse.
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